THE WORK BEHIND THE WORK with Abby Vickery

What does it mean to spend your life holding space for other people—and still make room to remain connected to yourself?

In this deeply personal episode of Chatting with Slava the Jordanian, Dr. Slava welcomes her friend Abby Vickery, a licensed clinical social worker, therapeutic coach, and leadership consultant, for a conversation that moves beyond professional titles and into the human experiences behind the work.

At the heart of their conversation is a powerful idea: healing isn’t about becoming someone else. It’s about returning to who you are.

Abby reflects on her journey through social work, child protective services, adoption, motherhood, medical social work, coaching, and leadership consulting. She shares how these experiences shaped the way she understands people, relationships, resilience, and the emotional weight carried by those whose work centers on helping others.

Dr. Slava and Abby also explore strength-based leadership and the importance of recognizing what is already strong within us rather than constantly approaching growth from the perspective of what needs to be “fixed.”

Their conversation expands into family communication, changing values, identity, motherhood, career transitions, and the increasingly complicated role technology plays in our relationships. Technology gives us unprecedented access to one another, yet that access does not necessarily create genuine human connection.

They also discuss emotional regulation, grief, gratitude, slowing down, and the practices that allow people in helping professions to continue serving others without completely losing themselves in the process.

This episode is ultimately about the work behind the work—the internal reflection, emotional awareness, relationships, experiences, and humanity that shape how we show up for others.

Because sometimes growth isn’t about becoming more.

Sometimes it’s about returning home to yourself.

Connect With Abby Vickery

Abby works primarily through word-of-mouth and personal referrals rather than maintaining a traditional website.

For professional inquiries or to connect with Abby:

Email: Netavn23@gmail.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Conversations feel different, not because of the topic, but because of the person sitting across from you. Today's episode is one of those conversations, because today I am not just speaking with a guest, I am speaking with a friend. Our friendship survived without building it on proximity, daily routines, or shared classrooms. This friendship was stretched across time zones, across life stages, across silence, change and everything in between. This friendship began in one chapter of life and somehow found its way through every chapter that followed. Through distance, through growth, through moments of disconnections and reconnections. Our special guest and my friend Abby is someone I've seen not only in her professional roles as a social worker, a family coach, a strength-based leadership trainer, but as a human being who shows up again and again for others. Today, Abby is a licensed clinical social worker, therapeutic coach, a leadership consultant working across ministry and organization settings. She focuses on high-achieving women and leadership, helping them address burnout and implement sustainable systems for both personal and professional growth. Her work blends clinical experience with deep understanding of leadership and performance. Welcome back to another episode of Chatting with Slava the Jordanian. I'm your host, STJ. And I am so excited to introduce to our community and our world and our space, Abby Vickery. Thank you so much for coming on.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

Thank you so much for having me, Slava. I'm I'm pretending that we're sitting on a bench in Magic Kingdom.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

We need this pretend and we need this memory with everything that's going on around the world. I thought we'll have this intimate hour together away from family responsibilities, spouses, kids, and just talk about Abby. So what I want to start with is to share with our audience and listeners who are you when you are not holding space for everyone else.

SPEAKER_01 2:42

That is a really, really good question. So I decided uh to be very intentional and vulnerable with you. So you'll hopefully I don't start crying or something like that because I am I am a crier. I'll try hard not to. Uh, but to be very honest, I think that I am in a stage of my life where I'm uh continually figuring that out. Uh I have spent the better part of my life showing up for other people uh at the cost of myself. And as I, you know, was younger, I didn't really notice that very much in my body and my soul. Um, it was just kind of a we're gonna show up this way and we're gonna do our best and we're gonna achieve and perform and show up for people. And as I got older, that cost me more. Uh, and so I'm I'm definitely in a in a season of my life where I am reflecting on that and trying to very much practice what I what I preach to other high achieving women and uh and figuring out what that looks like in my own life.

SPEAKER_00 3:53

That's really um very important point because I have addressed it with your uh husband Eric, who's been my dental coach for I don't know, 20 years, and that's when when I met you. Um and it's it's and another thing that I learned, it's burned out, right? It's just you burn out emotionally, physically. I've been doing dentistry for 27 years, and and it's it's not the dentistry that really exhausts me. It's just giving up a lot of m me to the team and to the patient to make sure that you know I manage everybody's expectations, basically. And that as we advance in the years, we don't recover as fast as you know when we are in the 30s and the forties. So our body yells out or screams out even louder when you when we get older that you need to slow down. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 4:51

After I graduated with a bachelor's, I started as a caseworker in child protective services and uh very unexpectedly unplanned, got pregnant with our first son, who is now 27, just turned 27, which is crazy. Uh and uh and so I was a social worker working for child protective services, and then I had Noah and um started to stay home. Uh, he was born prematurely, and it kind of forced, you know, to really change the trajectory of what we thought our lives were gonna look like. I thought I was gonna go back to work part-time and things like that, uh, and did not, and then ended up having another son and adopting two daughters, and then I went back to grad school. Uh, so they were in school when I went back to grad school. And before that, I did um a lot of contract social work, uh, usually in the field of adoption, but not always. And uh, and then when they were in school, I went to grad school and uh and then have done a lot of different things. That's the beautiful thing about social work, is you can do a lot of different things. And I knew when I was choosing my path in the helping profession, what drew me to social work was that I wanted to be able to help in a lot of different settings. And uh, and so social work allowed me to do that, whether it was in the hospital or in a ministry setting, which I'm doing now, or in a school uh or in a therapeutic, more clinical setting and you know, mental health and county mental health. Uh, so I've gotten the wonderful, I I say that with my whole heart, just so blessed to be able to work in all of those different arenas because it's taught me a lot and it's also allowed me to um try a lot of different things, which I've really, really appreciated. He was born in 1999. That year, Mother's Day was on May 9th, which is when he was due, and he was born on March 22nd. I can't remember exactly how many weeks that is now. I'm not a math girl, but it's very premature. And so I was brought via ambulance from Augusta to Portland, Maine, and had him at the the Barbara Bush Children's Hospital in Portland. And uh it really changed, you know, our whole plan. Um, getting pregnant with him unexpectedly. We were, uh I had already enrolled and gotten accepted for grad school, and we actually were planning a trip to Europe and uh and found out that we were pregnant with him, and it was the absolute best thing that's ever happened, uh, and also was not our original plan.

SPEAKER_00 7:31

So oh my God. So see how things I mean, children in general resilience, so uh very resilient, and it's it's amazing how the divine just sends with them so much power and so much energy that it it it just defies every you know ri possibility or just the inclination that they might not make and look at him too, and he's doing machinery work, no? He I mean he's he's doing ministry, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:00

He was yes, he is in ministry. He is uh what's called it's kind of a fun term. He is a next gen pastor uh at a at a church in Denver, um, and is married to a really, really wonderful, incredible young young woman. And uh they had Wells uh last May, so he turned uh 10 months old today, actually. Um, and Wells was a gift to our family in a in a really difficult season of our lives, uh, which is another timely uh timely blessing uh for sure. So uh we get out there to see them as often as possible, and it's uh it's honestly a joy. I haven't been able to really find words, appropriate words for um the way that that feels. Um I think my favorite thing that I've been able to process and figure out is that when we met Wells, everything about him was so familiar. Um, you know, which when you're meeting somebody for the first time, uh, you don't really think that way. Uh, but being around him just feels really, really familiar, um, which is really cool. Uh Eric is Pops, and Eric is trying very hard to have Wells say pops before he says Mimi. Uh so we have a little bit of a competition um going, but he says mama and dada, and he's mimicking all the things. He's just found his tongue. So Eric is a as as you know, uh one of the funniest people I've ever met. And so he is doing all sorts of things. He'll say, Show me your tongue, and Well sticks out his tongue, and uh it's really funny.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

So you guys are gonna have a lot of fun because when kids have personalities that early, um, they you know, I d I worked at Daycare and you your whole career it's working with children, but they're very smart and they learn really, really fast. So it's it's gonna be a lot of fun. And I and I hope I I can't wait for Ty and Naomi and Maya. Oh my god, it's it's it's funny how you see, like I said, flesh and blood, but they just copy that personality and you see the little, you know, your kids' personality in that little personality. It's it's so cute. All right, back to reality, because I can go on. Exactly. So you you had Noah, and then you um you were signed up in in graduate school, and you you have Thai after, right? And then you guys moved back to because Erica's from California, so you were in Maine, that's when I met you guys. And you went back to California, and then how as far as your career, did was there a gap? Like when you moved from Maine to California, did you have to hold off on what you wanted to do? Did you do the same thing that you did in Maine in California? How was that transition?

SPEAKER_01 10:48

Yeah, so I um I really, really, really loved being a stay-at-home mom. And my my version of the way that I wanted that to look would be literally like I've got the apron on and I go collect my eggs in the backyard, you know, in the morning, and I have a mini donkey and live on a gentleman's farm. Uh, my husband is not that way um at all. So uh he he's not a camper, he's a five-star hotel kind of guy. So we had a little, you know, we we did not have the the gentleman's farm when when my kids were growing up. We lived in suburbia, um, which was wonderful. Um, and I'm not complaining in any way, but it definitely wasn't the the picture that you know I would have had. I would have, um, yeah, I love animals. So give me all the animals. Um so we did, uh we moved back to California and I stayed home. And we had just adopted Maya from Guatemala, and then we started the adoption process through our local foster care system. And we brought Naomi home when she was two and then adopted her when she was four. And uh during that time I was doing contract work for an adoption agency that was located in Central California. And so the beautiful thing about that was I could do it around my schedule. Um, and then I went back to grad school when they were in school and in preschool. Uh, and I would uh do my homework at night after we put them to bed. And the program that I did was wonderful uh because it was in our town, uh, but through Chico State University, but it was in the town that we live in, which is an hour from that university. And so I was able to go on Saturdays when Eric had the kids, and I loved every minute of it. I think that's the wonderful thing about learning. Like when you know you're in your lane, the things that you learn about are so exciting and fun. And I really felt that way. Like I loved my classes, I loved my professors. It was also a really interesting thing because I had gone to a private Christian university and uh and then being in social work, which is, you know, quite a there's a lot of depth and breadth in terms of, you know, different political views and you know, all a culture and all of that type of thing that I hadn't been exposed to, not only in our professors, but in the type of learning that we did and the things that we read. And I was so grateful for that. And yeah, so I did that program and then graduated in 2012 uh from that program and then started working uh full-time from there in a lot of different uh venues. I mean, really, really different, you know, everything from county mental health to hospital to um private practice to telehealth to school counseling. Uh, I did a lot of different things. That's the other great thing about being a social worker is when people look at your resume, they don't go, oh gosh, you're not, you know, you're not um you're you're not consistent or you're not loyal. Um they look at your your your resume as a social worker and you're like, oh yeah, you're doing lots of different things because you're a social worker. So that's great, uh, which was really fun.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

So uh let's back up a little bit. So you went from Maine to California. First of all, you can take the girl from Maine, but you can't take Maine from the girl, right? So I can't, you know, I I can't imagine you not wanting to be in nature because even if you're not a nature person, I lived in Maine for two years and I didn't live up north where you were at. I was southern Maine, which a lot of Mainers don't consider Maine. Um but it just you cannot help but be in the beautiful nature of Maine. It just you want to be outside all the time because it's just so pretty and it has that just mystical uh, you know, uh energy about Maine. You know, even when we drive now from New Hampshire to Maine, it takes us like 90 minutes to just to go to Kenneba uh Portland, Maine. The moment you cross the border, you just feel this blanket of bliss. It was like, ooh, we're Maine. It's it's so bizarre. I mean, Stephen King wrote about it in so many of his books. I think that's where the inspiration of the energy in Maine, it has its own special energy.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

So I'm not I'm not surprised you you wanted that, but I loved I I think about growing up in Maine and what a gift that was. And and I was born and raised there, and uh we go back there, you know, not as often as I would like, but this year I turned 50 and uh Eric was like, Do you want to go on a trip? And do you want to, you know, what do you want to do? And I said, I want to go to Maine. So we're bringing everybody and staying at the lake. My dad lives um on a lake, and you know, just waking up to the sound of the loons and sitting by the fire at night is like the most wonderful gift to my soul, truly.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

I I agree with you a hundred percent. I mean, I I traveled Europe and I was, you know, in North Africa the past two years, and you know, I'm from Levantine and Jordan and living in Saudi Arabia, but it just I I I don't blame you. Maine is just such a I left my I left my heart in Maine of all the places I've been, all the places I lived in. And I always say it, if it wasn't for my Egyptian darling, Yahweh, just like Eric, I would be still a Maine, you know, because it just it has such a special place on earth, I think. So, you know, you wear so many hats. Did you right now, or even you know, through your career or even your past, did you always see yourself doing this kind of work? I mean, when did you like how old were you? And like I know I wanted to do dentistry. I was inspired by the new dentist who was inside. I was like eight years old. So I don't know if you uh listen to the episode, I talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

I have always uh, and I I I think you are similar to this too, Slava. I feel in so many ways um kindred spirits with you, but uh, I have always been someone that just naturally people will talk to and um and feel, you know, some uh a degree of safety pretty quickly. Um and that's something I noticed when I was young. That's something people would tell me and adults that knew me when I was younger would would comment on. And so I knew that I wanted to do something to help people. I would have loved to have been a nurse. Uh, and unfortunately, uh I am quite squeamish when it comes when it comes to all things body fluid. And so uh when I was a social worker in a hospital, that that was a little difficult actually. Um, and so I I I thought, okay, maybe I can get over that and learn to ignore or whatever. But I I was very drawn to psychology. And uh so that's what my undergrad was in, and I really loved it. Uh, and so I knew, you know, I I didn't have any hesitation uh once I was taking those classes. I was like, okay, this is for me. Uh and then after that, it's really just choosing the the path of helping that you want to do with that type of undergraduate degree. And my choice would have been to be a licensed marriage and family therapist or go into clinical social work. And the reason I chose clinical social work is because I knew that I, while, you know, being in a clinical setting and doing one-on-one or couples therapy or family therapy, I really loved that. I wanted to be able to do some different things. Um, so as an LMFT, you can't work in a hospital, you know, or or different things like that. You can't be a school counselor in the same way. Um, and so that's why I chose that route. And when I'm working with younger adults and they're like, which path do I choose? I have that conversation with them. Do you see yourself sitting, you know, one-on-one with somebody and you're in an office and you're in a clinical setting, or do you see yourself running into the emergency room post-trauma, you know, doing a trauma assessment and the adrenaline and all of that, which I loved. Uh, and so uh that's that's why I chose that path.

SPEAKER_00 18:51

It takes a special person to have that kind of, you know, that kind of energy. So um, so there is the there is a concept called the strength space lead space leadership. And I spoke to Dana Industry about it um in in the episodes I had them on. But I want to know from you through the the line of work that you do, what does that really mean from from a social worker uh point of view and also from the um leadership consulting that you are doing?

SPEAKER_01 19:26

Absolutely. So there's a couple different ways to look at that. There is, um, you know, of course, and I know you know a lot about this, but there is Clifton Strengths, previously called Strengths Finder, um, you know, where they're looking at the different themes of of your strengths, um, and how does that show up? What is the, you know, sometimes we say the shadow side or the dark side of that strength, and what is the healthy side of that? There's that, you know, approach, but in general, a strengths-based approach and a strengths space is being able to look at, you know, a person comes to us with their personality and their values and you know, the things that have happened to them, their capital T and little T traumas. And when you are serving someone to be able to uh highlight and lean into their strengths that that are innate to them. And I think often when we're going through hard things, um, those are are not really the forefront. They're not things that we naturally look at, they're not naturally something that we work from. And so as a helper to be able to highlight what those are in somebody else and be able to say, this, this is who you are, this is what you've got. And that's amazing. And how do we, how do we explore that? How do we lean into that? How is it serving you? How is it not serving you? Um, an example that I can give you from my own life, and again, this is me being uh this opening my soul to you, is uh one of my my Clifton Strength's responsibility. And I I'm not a huge fan of it, to be honest. Uh, it it has served me, sure. I think it's actually served other people in my life more than it's served me. Uh, but I bleed for it. So whatever it is that I step into, I also have belief. Um, so whatever it is that I'm passionate about that I step into that I give to myself, I will bleed for. And so it has cost me. It has cost me in relationship, it has cost me at work. Um, and and that's what I was referencing at the beginning of our conversation too. Just as I get older, learning um to notice my body, um, the cues that my body gives me when I am doing that too much. There's a there's a beautiful side of that, uh, and there's also a shadow side. And I have physically felt the shadow side. Of that as I've gotten older.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

I agree with you 100% because I mean ability is one of my strengths, I think, in in uh discipline. But uh it's just being too responsible sometimes, it will weakens you, it will just drag you down. So just like anything else, when you play upon something way too much, it becomes your weakness, not your strength, right? It's like you know, eating your favorite food all the time, overworking out, oversleeping, not sleeping too much because you're overthinking, you know, it becomes a weakness because you just almost you abuse it.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

I turned 50 on you.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

Dark slava. Oh my goodness, I can't even believe it. I'm gonna be 57, Abby, in June.

SPEAKER_01 22:42

You but you look 30.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

You are being the 6-0. I told you. I was like, how did this even happen? It's so crazy. Enjoy the rest of your 40s because 50s are I tell everybody, all my patients, and I have patients in the 60s and the 70s, and they tell me we we share stories all the time and we compare notes all the time. The 50s are really the uh test the female body. I mean, it pushes it to the edge, seriously. And and we joke around. If you make it through the 50s, like if you make it beyond 55 and you are still sane, you you're gonna make it. You're gonna make it. But it just it's so challenging because you are in your prime, right? You have gained life experience, you finally have the aha moment. I got everything set up. I'm used to my life, I got everything figured out. You're even your career, especially with you. Look at you, you're doing a lot of leadership and consultation. You know, we s you start really, really simple, and now you are out kind of out of the public arena into more a private, exclusive um, you know, community and and practice. And you finally like got really comfortable. It's like, oh, this is really comfortable, I'm really enjoying it, and then the 50s hit, and things you have to be challenged with ever in private every single day, uh, you know, between you and your body, between you and your mindset, between you and your emotions, between everything just changes. So all I'm saying is if you can get to Maine as many times as possible, because that's one of the things that really keep me sane. I I used to wake up and tell Ehab, Oh, you gotta take me to Maine today. I I just gotta go. I love that. I go for a day. I swear to God, ask him. I would go, I wake up on Saturday mornings, I'm getting ready. He goes, Where are you going? It's like I'm going to Maine. I'm just going to Kinnebank or Portland. I just want to be there and just breathe that fresh air, clean air, and just be with Mainers. And I come back and I was like, okay, I'm I'm recharged, I'm I'm ready to go. But um, I I can't wait for that. It's gonna be a huge celebration. So if you need any help, let me know. I know we are across the continent, different time zones, but I'll be very happy to help you out as much as I can. Within your line of work, what are some of the patterns that you are seeing over and over again working with families?

SPEAKER_01 25:10

I think I think the biggest thing is that truly, I would say the main theme is that past hurts and wounds are reflected in present communication. And until those patterns are addressed and uh and and there is the ability to really work through that, then it's a pattern that that repeats over and over again. And there's just a lot of hurt. So I see that in marriages, I see that in families, I certainly see that in my own family. Um, and you know, those things that uh, you know, even if it has seemed like something smaller, usually there uh there are repeats in communication patterns that happen over and over. We know that in marriage, you know, in terms of the way that we argue, um, which by the way is not a bad thing at all. Um, but there are patterns that repeat over and over. And it's so important to be able to identify what they are and uncover what the root is of that fear or you know, the anger, whatever it is. Um so that's something that I see quite often.

SPEAKER_00 26:24

So you mentioned communication. Do you think because I I addressed it, I have I addressed it with um Elizabeth, who is the marriage and family therapist out of Alabama, and I addressed it with, I think, uh Dustry too. And um, I, you know, I talked to on the show, I talked to a lot of women in leadership positions, which is therapy or corporate, and they you guys are all and or we are all in agreement that there is a lack of communicate communicative skills, especially with the new generation. Try to bring everybody together, sit down around the table and have dinner or conversation. It's like nobody has time, everybody's busy, that doesn't work out for me. And before you know it, it's like, all right, I'm just gonna forget about that. And and then you look back, it's like, oh my god, it's been months since I've seen so and so. So do you believe that too? Because that's been addressed a couple of times. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

I I absolutely do, Sava. I think about, I mean, even in the time that I have in my career as I've served children and families, the changes in um, you know, really what the the issues are in the context of the family and what's affected that, what's triggered that issue in in the way that that you expressed. And I I absolutely think that it is a shift in values. Uh family or a person, an individual might not tell you, oh, my value, you know, used to be this and now it's this, but there has been a value shift because our values are expressed in our habits, right? Um, for for better or worse, that's the truth. We don't, we don't like to acknowledge that. But if you tell me that your value is family and togetherness and that doesn't show up in your life, you know, then that's not an expression of your values, the way you're living. There's a there's a misalignment somewhere, uh, which is a lot of what we address in therapeutic coaching. You are you are not aligned with the way you want to live your life and your values. And so I really think that it has a lot to do with technology. I am not a technology hater. It is fascinating to me now, and I even have talked through this with my son and daughter-in-law, that there has been such a pendulum swing. Uh, there's a really popular book right now out that a lot of young parents are reading called Hunt Gather Parent. And it is this, you know, going back to our roots and the way that our values used to be expressed pre-technology. And uh, and I think that there's just such a disconnect and isolation that naturally happens. And the other thing that I see, especially in young adults, is because they've grown up in that culture, that tech culture, then they don't have the skills, they don't have the emotional intelligence that, and I'm and I'm not saying that they don't have it, they don't utilize it. They don't, it's not a muscle that they flex uh because it is it is flexed differently when you are using technology and when that's at the forefront of the way that you communicate. So uh you're seeing things now like people buying landlines for their homes and not giving, you know, there's such a thing as a gab phone that has no, you know, t actual internet or anything on it. It's just some a device that you use to call. And so that pendulum is swinging back, which I think is awesome. And we can also celebrate technology and what it does for us at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

I always said it, I I I believed, you know, uh, you know, eHabi's just really techie. And and um and he's into pro you know progressive innovation and and and I agree with him, technology is gonna help a lot of people. Like it's but it's a double-edged sword, right? And just like everything else, if honey too much, it becomes that this unhealthy codependency relationship. You know, if my phone is not charged, I'm not gonna be okay. If I don't have my phone on me, I'm not gonna be okay. So if my phone is not okay, I'm not okay. But also technology becomes that uh the trigger that dysregulates a lot of these kids, right? Because it's all about comparison and almost like uh I call it the digital um um competition, you know, like, oh, you have this phone, I have this phone, you have this game, I have this game, you have access to Instagram, I have access to Instagram. It's it's constantly comparing and competing with that. And that's not really a healthy, you know, competition. Competition can be healthy, but also the technology is helping a lot of the medical innovation, a lot of the like the surgeries right now, the diagnosis, the differential diagnosis that in the medical field, in the pharma field, in uh in agriculture, in in um in uh aviation, you know, in uh, you know, there's a lot of significant impact of the advanced technology that we we see around the world, but we don't recognize it or we don't really um appreciate it because we just oh yeah, it's it's part of our world. And they tell you right now where where we're living right now in this age is the most advanced humanity ever seen. It's it's the most the healthiest, the cleanest, and the safest. Sometimes it doesn't feel that way, but it is true if you look back, you know, now if you're saying, oh, it could be much better, yeah, of course it could be much better. If you think about it, uh human created technology. So these kids sometimes they think that technology just drops from the sky from the spaceship, the alien created it. And I keep reminding the young generation, guys, the AI was created by human brain, right? Computers were created by human brain, phones were created by human brain, humans created all that. It's not that technology were sent to us, you know, overnight. And they look at me, it's like, oh yeah, you're absolutely right. So I said, okay, don't be don't be like uh completely controlled by it, because that human brain that created technology is controlling your brain. So one brain is creating uh controlling brain, you guys should be equal. You know, you be you j you guys should not be competing that way. You should not let something or someone dominating you, you need to have the intelligence to say, all right, I'm gonna uh pick this device to use it for certain things. I'm gonna drop this device because I want to go have dinner with my family, I want to go have a walk with my kid, you know, I want to go play ball with my kid and just have the human part of it. It's okay to have both. But unfortunately, right now, because everything is so monetized and you know, um, in and technology driven, you either this or that. Why can't you be both? You know what I'm saying? Like why can't we have the balance?

SPEAKER_01 33:09

Exactly. Uh, I love when you said I love the the word you use, the duality of that. That's absolutely brilliant. Have you heard of the analog life? Because that's what you're describing. I this is a new concept to me. I'm just learning about it. So I hope I don't misspeak in any way. Yes, you you need to look this up. It's fascinating. So the analog life is, you know, sort of going backwards to uh pre, you know, the I would say the intensity of technology and the way that it has overtaken our lives. And so they have these really cool expressions of that. Well, you can have an analog bag. And so actually, some of it that I've seen online is adorable that you would love because we love LL Bean and the little boat and totes, and you get a boat and tote and you put, you know, your needle point and your knitting and your, you know, your word scramble and your journal and things that are not technology related, and you have your analog bag, um, and that helps you to get away from your devices. So even, you know, moms that are sitting in the pickup line instead of you know looking down like this, you get out your analog bag and you use that. And uh there are you know more tools to allow us to um be able to in your perfect word, express the duality of that living.

SPEAKER_00 34:30

We should, we should be, we should be both. Do you know what I'm saying? Because exactly I remember I always tell my team, I said, listen guys, do not, do not be so dependent on technology, especially the young associates, right? You gotta be able to think on your own to troubleshoot certain things. My generation is the last, as far as Dennis is concerned, is the last generation, I think, that was trained on both. How do you use your hands and and your and your brain and trying to figure things out and troubleshoot? Technology is awesome while it's working, technology is awesome while you still have power. Technology is awesome while you know how to apply it or or or learn it, right? I had a moment, I was just finishing a root canal and light out. We lost power. It was the middle of the winter. Oh my goodness. Right? And I looked, I had my magnification loose, but I they back then they did not have the attached overhead light. So I looked up my assistant and she goes, Oh man, we gotta finish this. I'm like, Yes, I'm almost done. It's just gotta seal the tooth and close it. She goes, Okay, don't move. Like, we're not gonna wrap this up. And in and the patient opened with a rubber dam in in their mouth, and they just looked at me with with open wide eyes, like almost like finish this, I wanna be done. She went and grabbed a flashlight and we finished the root canal under a flashlight. I had to, right? Because what are the options, right? Wrap it up, bring the patient back in. You you're not you know, but I'm I'm almost there. I have my loops, I can look at the canal, I can seal it, and we just finish it holding a flashlight. So, but this generation, absolutely not. Okay, lights out, wrap it up, like just bring the patient back in because if they are not they're not able to use technology, it almost like uh I'm not sure if it's gonna be accurate. You do your best and you hope for the best. That's what I teach them all the time. But what keeps me up at night is like if we don't teach them how to be independent of technology, independent of us too, not holding their hands, how are they gonna do, how they gonna continue moving forward, progressing without us moving on. As your friend, I've been I I see how much you give with every single person and every single thing that you actually touch, Abby. And I just wanted to ask you, how does it does it ever feel heavy? I mean, I talked about how I I come home, I'm completely drained, and I and I tell EHA, you know, I'm mayor to work because eyeb comes home too, and we want to talk about work. It's like, okay, you got one hour, but that's it because I have no energy left. I do.

SPEAKER_01 36:56

I would be lying to you if I if I said that I didn't. And I have um I have reflected on that a lot over the years, uh, at different stages in my career and in my life in general. And I think there's been different intensities prior to learning the boundaries that I have now. Uh I think the, you know, the truth of it is that I don't believe that I would be able to show up for people in the way that I do if I was detached. And it takes an incredible amount of emotional, even physical energy uh to be very present and um, you know, mirroring and leaning in and really, really listening. And uh, and I think the other thing that I've learned over the years is that it can be as much about what you don't say as what you do say. Uh so you know, obviously clinicians have different, you know, styles, and uh, I have friends that I I would say are more bulldogs and you know are gonna be really mouthy with you. And then I have friends that are more the sit back and nod and uh you know that type of thing. And uh and I'm probably somewhere in the middle. Uh, but you know, that active listening and that mirroring and things like that, that that does uh take a lot out of me emotionally, spiritually, physically, all of the things. Um, but I I wouldn't want to do this work detached. I don't think that would be fair to the people that I serve. And uh, and I think that's why I've had this heightened awareness as I've gotten older of, you know, what am I responsible for? What am I not responsible for? How do I care for myself? How do I show up for the people that I love in the way that aligns with my values and my belief. Um and that's definitely been a process. I I thought that I had boundaries early on that now reflecting, I realized I didn't, uh, and I brought that work home. I think the most notable would be when I worked at the hospital. Uh, I was a medical social worker and my kids were in school, but they were young, and I didn't last two years in that role, mainly because this the schedule was not flexible. So, like if you had a soccer game or a basketball game at four o'clock in the afternoon, you had to take the whole day off. And uh that was really difficult to navigate with four kids, but uh even more than that uh was uh once once people figure out that you're a kid person, uh, then you usually get um assigned to, for lack of a better word, those types of scenarios. And so I worked a lot in oncology and helped uh helped kids say goodbye to their parents. And uh that was the first time in my career that on my drive home I could not listen to music. Uh usually I would listen to worship music or um, you know, something like that, favorite songs, and I couldn't even, I didn't even have the capacity to uh listen to anything. And I would roll down the windows and drive home and take the long way so that I could take as much space as I could before I got home. And uh there was a particularly devastating case uh one night, and I stayed, they asked me to stay late, pass my shift and be there until the mom passed away. And I remember that night when I was driving home, uh the drive from the hospital to my house is through our small town, but it was active and people were going out to dinner and I was stopped at a red light, and people were passing on the crosswalk and they were laughing and talking. And I remember thinking, how are they doing that? Like that don't they know that somebody's life just ended and that life for the people that she loved is standing still, and um the weight of that was really, really, really difficult to work through. Um and I've had a few other, you know, really significant things um that I have walked with people through, and I I don't want to do that in a detached way. Uh, but yes, it does cost me something.

SPEAKER_00 41:42

So how how do you do how do you d uh regulate yourself? Like how do you you know the long way and but even going home, you know, you s you've seen you've seen what you've seen and you cannot unsee what you have seen. I mean, I've done gross anatomy, cadavers, and we had to like in dental school, we had to learn the background of that cadaver. My cadaver was homeless, he was um a North Korea uh veteran for drugs.

SPEAKER_01 42:09

Well, I think for me it's really interesting. Uh one of the biggest things is gratitude. And I I know that sounds a little weird, but in the context of this, but uh I am so grateful for the opportunity to be able to sit with somebody in their deepest grief and pain. Uh, I am so grateful that I can uh hold space for them and be used in that way. It I think about that every time, whether it's a little T or a big T trauma, you know, just the gratitude that uh that people would be, you know, allowing me into that space. And and I know that everybody has, you know, different strengths and abilities and things. And uh for whatever reason, uh it's something that I feel um very drawn to and and led to and comfortable with uh, you know, that that chaos. Um and and so I think gratitude is a is a really big piece of it. I I think there's there's it's multifold. The the other piece would be that I uh I have a really wonderful community. And um, and not that I, you know, obviously because of confidentiality, they don't know necessarily what's what I am walking through um with somebody, but just um being surrounded by people that push you and you know call the best out in you, um and you know, that type of thing, um, getting to go to my happy place with my favorite ehab and slava and seeing, you know, joy and uh Um, that's why I like Disney World, by the way. I figured it out. I don't know if I told you. I know that's a sidebar. I'll stop. But um anyway, those types of things. And then as I've gotten older and my body has not uh responded, bounced back as quick as it used to, one of the things that I am trying desperately to protect in this season of my life is slow mornings. Uh I we've gone through a challenging season as parents in the last few years, and my mornings were pretty chaotic for a while. We have a daughter with special needs. And um, so in the resolve of that over the past couple of years, one of the things, you know, just I love animals. I have amazing dogs. Um and so, you know, drinking my coffee slowly and patting their heads and being grateful for the birds and the sun streaming through the window, uh, and you know, getting ready slow and not being rushed, you know, all of those things uh makes my day totally different than when I have a chaotic rushed morning. So uh I'm learning those things as I've gotten older, what feeds my soul. And being in nature feed my soul, and um my faith is something that I can't fathom uh being without. And so, you know, those are those are things I think that sustain um sustain me for sure.

SPEAKER_00 45:31

I have one patient that she got into bird photography, and she takes the most beautiful, beautiful yes, yes. She is such she always loved birds and she used to be a marathon runner, and then when she got diagnosed, she got she fell into depression, she lost a lot of weight. Um, she she made it through, she's very, very strong. So she disappeared uh from out of our practice for a while, and I I didn't know what was going on. And then when I saw her again, reviewed medical history, I found that out. I was like, oh my god, and then because she always was a bird watcher and she knew her birds, she uh picked up photography, and that's her basic blessing that she goes out in the woods and she spends hours and hours and hours, and maybe sometimes she'll take like one and two photos, but they're absolutely gorgeous, you know, and she travels to Maine and Vermont and she's such an outsy, but you know, I'm biased. I think because you're a Mainer, you have the ability to do what you do, because I think people from Maine are so in touch with their with their inner self and also the divine and the creation around them and and and the gratitude. Um so real quick, we've talked about what do people not see about your work and you you have you know touch base on the you know very intimate moments with what goes, you know, inside of you when you are experience or you are witnessing like trauma or devastation or or despair.

SPEAKER_01 47:01

I I don't think that we can prepare ourselves um, you know, in the ways that we we think. I think it's so much about practical, you know, knowledge and experience and you know, you get the book knowledge when you're in school. But I think one of my favorite things to do actually is sit with young people as they're trying to figure out what path to choose. And if they want to be a helper um, you know, in the psychology field in general, there's just so many different paths within that. Uh, but I I think I think the biggest thing is talk to as many people um as you can and ask questions, what is your typical day? Um, because there are so many different paths within the field, and I and I think I shared this a little bit before, but but when, you know, if you were to choose to be an LMFT, a marriage and family therapist, um, you know, then what that looks like sitting um, you know, with somebody in a room and um, you know, having that one-on-one is very different than uh being able to do, you know, a number of different things in social work. And if you know you want to do that, then take that path. Um so there's a lot. I think the thing that that people don't realize before they get into work, the work is that there is a tremendous amount of mental and emotional preparation uh before you are one-on-one, you know, or with a family or with a child, whatever. Um you're not you're not just showing up. And if you are just showing up, then you're not gonna be as effective as that person deserves. Um, and not in any way that it's about you, it's about their process. But if you are not doing the mental, the emotional, the spiritual preparation before you get there, just like you have to do slava in the same way, the slava that shows up, you know, and serves her patients because of the work that you do and because of how passionate and intentional you are, and because of your relational approach, that looks different than somebody who comes in the door and just is, you know, going through the motions clinically. And it's the same thing in in my field in many ways. And so you have to be willing to do the mental and emotional preparation uh in order to serve people well. Um, I think that's the biggest thing.

SPEAKER_00 49:17

You're constantly reassessing your your you know, your ways. And that's why you take classes, continue to because things have changing. You're there's so many uh evolved uh tools that can help you be better, be better for you clients, be better for you patient to manage those uh expectations. So last thing, how can people find you, Abby?

SPEAKER_01 49:38

Gosh, uh so I uh I would say the biggest thing is email and uh phone number. I don't use a website anymore. I used to um and I don't, um, but I can make sure that I uh give you the the correct contact information if you want to share. Uh and I really typically work most of the time, 95% of the time, by word of mouth, uh, which is great. And I have fallen into a niche in the last few years of of serving very high performing women, uh, which is awesome. And then I do a lot of grief work um as well. So yes, I will make sure that that you have that. And I wanted to share something with you really super quick about when you said birding, um, and I'll and I'll be really quick. So I am learning about that. And there is a book, I can actually get you the name of it. I'm not remembering it off the top of my head. I've just read it, and it's about this woman who is a birder that was writing a book about grief. And so she was combining the two, which was really beautiful. And one of the things that she said that she loved about birding in real in in correlation with grief is that birding taught her to look up. And I was like, that is the most beautiful thing, and I knew you would love that, so I had to share it with you.

SPEAKER_00 50:57

That is beautiful. That she said it right in the beginning of the episode that the divine will send us certain tools to help us get through certain things. So there's always a wisdom to it because it's just the creation and the miracles that it's all around us. It doesn't have to be a digital device. That a lot of the stuff is just you look, you have to look through nature. So make sure you get me the contact, we'll put it down in the description below.

SPEAKER_01 51:24

I I know your listeners know this, but but gosh, what you see is what you get with this elegant, brilliant woman. And I'm I'm super grateful to get to be able to sit and chat with you.

SPEAKER_00 51:36

I love you, and you are my favorite meaner. But we have reached the end of our hour. As a reminder, these episodes are uploaded weekly on Spotify, Apple, and YouTube by the Mindset Mastery Moments. If you have enjoyed this, please like, share, and hit the notification bell. That way you won't miss any episodes, and it's free. This community is sponsored by humanity and supported by everyday people stories, just like what we heard from Abby. So please find us, join us, support us, and as always, be kind. Thank you for watching and listening. Hope to see you next time. This is Lava the Jordanian.